Carolyn Wiger Talks Survivor 47

Hey everybody, what's going on? Rob Cesternino back, and I'm so excited to have some bonus podcasts coming your way this week. You know, we had Gabe talk about the Mount Rushmore of the new era, and what a great time to talk with somebody who is a lock for the Mount Rushmore of the new era. Here she is, Carolyn Wiger. Carolyn, how are you? Good! You think so? Because sometimes... I know! What's that syndrome called? Imposter syndrome? Yeah, I suffer from that a hundred percent. I have a hard time. It wasn't until, I'm not kidding, during the season—when the season was airing—I didn't read anything because I had seen some bad stuff before the season started that made me cry for a week. I promised myself I would never go online and search my name again anyway.

But my dad would always send me the good stuff, the positive stuff. Other than that, I wouldn't have known what people thought of me, and I still don't really know. It's just crazy. So hearing that, it's like, who are you? I thought you were going to be talking about Parvati or something. Well, Parvati's not even from the new era.

Or not, or whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like, someone more like me. I wouldn't think so.

Carolyn, I also wrote a newsletter for our reality TV newsletter, and I mentioned that you are on the Mount Rushmore of all-time confessional givers. You know what's crazy about that? It's kind of like believing in yourself. Even then, when you see in the season the first confessional where I'm struggling, it was hard, and I didn't think I would get many confessionals. I remember thinking, "I'm probably not going to get many confessionals." I even said that to production out there: "Hold on; hopefully, I don't get purple this season." I truly believe that.

I truly believed I was out there. I thought, "I don't think I'm going to be narrating the season because I don't speak like a lot of other people." I get nervous about coming on your podcast, and I've told you that because I don't talk or sound like those who are so eloquent and well-spoken, you know? So, thank you.

Yeah. Well, I'm so happy that you're here. I'm so glad that you made the time to do this. We'll talk a little bit about Survivor and everything that you have going on. You're a podcaster now, and to be honest, I look at a lot of your stuff, and you're doing such a good job. I mean that. There is no one who does it quite like you. I don't even want to say, "Hey, hopefully I get to the level of Rob," because it won't happen. You put in a lot of hard work, but you do so well—not just with Survivor, but with everything. You're recapping everything!

Everything. And people are excited to do RHAP. It's the truth. Before I did Survivor, what did I listen to? RHAP.

What did I say? What was the thing that Stephen Fishback did that was outdated? He did the people blog? No, this was old. And then, if you read through the whole thing, I think the last word was something like "fake fan" or something. Stephen Fishback did something.

And the last word was "fake fan, fake fan," and it was a test to see if you had listened to all of it. Yes, what was it? It was basically a bunch of secrets that if you play the game, it's like a how-to guide. Wow, and Steven wrote this; no one uses it anymore, I believe. So, I wrote to you before I did 44, and I was like, "Is this still relevant to Survivor today?" Of course, you didn't see it because, well, you're you. I listened to all of it; I did all that stuff to prepare.

I would go on your site. I would watch content. I would read things like all the Bloomberg articles. You know what I mean? So, you just do a lot.

Sure! Here's the text with correct capitalization and spelling: "Yeah. Alright, well tell me about your podcast that you and Carson are talking about this season. Recently, I’m trying to... it’s hard for me because I don’t like to read a lot of the comments. I want to shelter myself from any hate, you know what I mean? I don’t need to ruin my day. But at the same time, it helps to get constructive criticism and feedback."

Recently, someone mentioned that Carson said last night, "Yeah, someone was saying that we don't talk about the episodes enough." This is likely because we've been having guests on. They suggested that if we're going to do an episode recap, we need to discuss the episode in more detail. However, you know what? That doesn’t really resonate with me, as I don't often do a lot of episodes.

To have an episode recap, you need to discuss the episode in more detail. However, you know what? To me, I don't really do a lot of episode recaps. I watched the episode—what do I need a recap for? I just watched it.

Yeah, but that's what you do, though. Then this happened, and then that happened, and this happened. I don't know; maybe it's because I do so many podcasts, but I've never done a Survivor podcast where it's like, "Okay, now I'm going to say every single thing that happened in the episode." But you do a good job of staying structured and keeping key points. You allow listeners to tune in and get a play-by-play of what happened, but I'm listening to the audience, and they want a little bit more recap, so we're... you know, I get a little excited with the guests sometimes. You've had some great guests on the podcast too, and I would love to talk about that. In your experience, what's been the biggest challenge of podcasting about this season?

About this season in particular, or I mean, I guess this is the one season. I mean, it's a podcast about Survivor. Season 45, what, a little bit? And then 46, I think? I don't even remember.

Or maybe it was 45, and then, yeah. But this season—this season! First of all, the technical aspects: you have a great setup. It's beautiful. Your setup is nice.

Yes. Are you on the second floor? It's just that I change my setups frequently. I want a permanent setup like yours. Also, my microphones haven't been working, and I've been experiencing a lot of technical difficulties. Other than that, I would say the hardest part is watching; it's so different once you've been in front of the camera.

I know it's been a little while for you, but it's like I see the beach and I'm reflecting on all my experiences. I'm watching it through my eyes, and it's hard to see it the way I used to. That's what makes it difficult. I want to be kind to people, but I also have my opinions. So that's a balance as well.

It's like I don't want to be a bully because I know how it feels. So, I don't want to be mean to people, but it's a balance between having an opinion. Could you speak to that a little bit? I think it's interesting that you mentioned how sensitive you are to criticism. You don't want to read the criticism that's out there about you, but you also want to discuss the show and keep it real and authentic.

And not everything is going to be just 100% fine and dandy with everybody. So how do you find that middle ground? I don't. And I'm a hypocrite. I'm serious, Rob.

I really do, like, I do. Because we had Angelina on, and I was like, she's like, "Yes, but you have to be kind." And I'm like, "Sometimes I don't want to." And we might make fun of you. Yeah.

But you know, can I mention something? I think it's okay for Carolyn to express her feelings about things she didn't like. It's perfectly valid for someone to say, "I didn't like that," even if it's not stated perfectly. After all, I did go on national television to play a game, so I guess that comes with the territory to some extent. I also want to clarify that there's a significant difference between making fun of a move and personal attacks. I've had people say things like I was on drugs or that I was "on crack."

She is somewhat similar to my personality, and it feels like there's something wrong with her. I’ve had many personal experiences that reflect who I am as a person, rather than just a silly mistake I made. There’s a huge difference. I would never attack someone’s personality, but I have felt protective over certain people, like Andy. I felt really bad for him during that first episode.

As a former player, I wanted to reach out and say: don't pay attention to what people say. That first episode was not good; it really was bad. I just feel protective about that aspect of things. We put ourselves out there, and while I’m not saying that should invite hate, I encourage you to have fun with it.

With it, make a joke of it. You know, yeah, now it's been a couple of seasons since you've played. How often do you find yourself reaching out to the current players to give them advice or to say, "Hey, I'm rooting for you!"? Not often. And it's not that I don't want to; it's just that I only recently turned my notifications back on for messages. I didn’t respond to so many people because I was really, really busy during the season, and even afterwards, things just kept getting crazier and busier. I just couldn't keep up. It wasn't that I didn’t want to give responses like, "Hey, thanks," or "Yep, okay." But every time I wrote back, I'd give these deep, heartfelt responses to people, and then I realized… that wasn’t enough either! Once I did that, I couldn't keep it going. It's like trying to keep a plant alive—you water it, and then it just expects more!

And I was spending so many hours responding to people that I just completely shut it down, and I wouldn't respond to anyone. Is this fans reaching out to you? I don't like to separate it, Rob. I don't.

And so it makes me uncomfortable; I don't want to sift through my messages. The players are fans as well. But even people might say, "Oh, so-and-so reached out to you," or "Oh, this person," you know what I mean? It becomes like, I never wanted to sift through the messages to decide who is more important, so I'll reach out to that person. Yes, I'm a fan, but I didn't want to prioritize one person over another.

I want to go through all of the messages, but it was too overwhelming. So when they come in, I can't. Does that make sense? And so I just don’t know how people get a hold of me now. This might sound really weird, but people usually get in touch with Carson. They’ll say, “Hey, I really want to get a hold of Carolyn. Can you tell her I’m trying to reach her?” Yeah.

And then I'll reach out to them. Or if it's somebody like Andy, who clearly was struggling and had that episode, I naturally am going to reach out to someone like Andy because I feel for them. How about when you played? Did the previous players reach out to you? It wasn't until, like, midway through the season that I stopped checking and stopped looking. It was one of those things where, again, I had imposter syndrome, but I really thought that I was going to go on TV and just be the freaky weirdo whom people made fun of, and I was okay with that. But I don't know; it was like the more positive responses I got from people, the more I didn't know who was genuine or who was just pretending, you know what I'm saying? And I just don't—I already have trust issues.

And so I didn't know, you know what I'm saying? I don't know who is actually. I'm not sure what you're saying—that you didn't know if people were trying to pregame with you for a comeback, or if they were clout chasing, or just being fake with me. Be fake with me.

Or, like, do you—like, you don't know me. And so it's like, what's your motivation here? Am I still playing the game then? I don't know; maybe I have trust issues, but I just didn't know how sincere people were. You know what I'm saying? So typically, I'll need someone like Todd Herzog to be like, "Hey, Carolyn, you can trust this person."

Look out. It's true. And I trust Todd Herzog. So it's like I kind of need a reference. Otherwise, you know what I'm saying?

Was that something? Yes. Was that something that you had to deal with before you played Survivor, or was it going through Survivor that made trust a big issue for you? Oh, that's just been an issue.

But, personally, I have been burned by people, you know? Absolutely. And that's why I will carry this into my future; it's something I will continuously work on. I'm really open about when I struggle; I don't stay stuck. I participate in self-help groups and therapy, but that is a continuous struggle of mine.

And then, obviously, I know the cast has been announced for "The Traders." Put me on another show with trust. Yes, this is a game, but like the truck, it's so emotional to these games, and you see it with Teeny. I know we'll talk about that, but when you're in the game, it parallels your real life, and whatever struggles you have in real life are going to come out a hundred times more out there. So, Carolyn, I'm glad you brought that up because this was something I was thinking about during the episode. We have that moment with Teeny where everything is going on with Genevieve, and Teeny feels like Genevieve voted out Salt to humiliate her. Genevieve responds, "No, no, why would I do that? I didn't do that." Teeny is in a really tight spot in the game, but she tells us in a confessional that the bad spot she is going through in the game reminds her of something she is dealing with in her real life.

And I thought that was so interesting because I think to myself, okay, I didn't play Survivor in the new era, but the whole thing about the new era is that it's fast—boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You don't have time to think about things. So, I found it very interesting that Teenie was feeling that way, especially with everything going on in the game swirling around, which got Teenie thinking about life outside of the game, of course.

And I related so much. Oh my gosh, I was crying right along with Teeny because it felt like being stripped away from everything. You start to self-reflect, and feelings and issues that I thought I had dealt with began to resurface. It completely triggers whatever issues you might be having in your regular life because this is a game about emotion, relationships, and people. As much as they want to try to separate it, you can even see Genevieve struggling, saying, "This is hard." It’s hard because it’s a game about emotions. I completely related to where Teeny was at, feeling like I don’t know where I fit in. Here I am, getting blindsided, asking myself, "Where do I fit in?" Then you go to tribal council, and it's all about community and fitting in. It's like Teeny is thinking, "Nowhere. I don't know."

I'm trying to figure that out. There are those moments because yes, it's go, go, go. But you also have moments of reflection. Even when I got blindsided by Carson and Jam Jam, I loved them. For me, it brought me back to every single time that people I loved and trusted betrayed me.

It did. It brought me back to every single time that people in my life, people that I loved and trusted, betrayed me. It did bring back those memories. So it's not necessarily that I'm crying about a game move or that it put me in a bad position. It hurts because I'm a human being. I can't separate the emotions; it's too hard for me.

I can get over it, but it takes me a little bit longer because I truly care about the people that I'm playing with. It's hard, yeah. So Genevieve and Tini had that conversation at the beginning of the episode, and it was so interesting that they were coming at this from two very different perspectives. Tini didn't want to play a very emotional game, yet has been unable to avoid making emotional connections.

And Genevieve has almost come into the game and said, "You know what? I'm not going to form emotional connections with people. I'm going to be all business, and I'm not going to let my emotions be a part of the game." So, for either of them, is it possible to be entirely one way and not both? I just still don't understand.

I think that regardless, people make emotional decisions. There are going to be decisions that are driven by emotions for some individuals, and it’s more obvious with certain people when they are more outward with their feelings. You can't deny that this is an emotional game where you have to literally form bonds with others. However, I believe that some people are just better at doing this than others. I am one of them.

I can't. I can't. And I think that it's even getting to Genevieve. Like, yes, she's out there and she's saying, "I'm going to do this," but you can see it kind of get to her a little bit, right? Or was she faking those tears?

I don't know. She's very expressive and fun to watch on the show. Now that she's gone through this whole experience, do you think things are going to be different for her? Or do you think we'll continue to see Genevieve— as she referred to herself last week— as "007"? First of all, I think it's going to catch up to her.

Absolutely. I think that eventually, it catches up to you. I mean, what do you think? I don't think that people can keep things hidden forever. People will find out. She was already so close with Jeannie. It's just that the whole situation is confusing for me, especially with the soul thing. I just don't get it.

I don't, I don't understand. I think it's going to— I think it is going to catch up with her. I do. People are already onto her. People are already onto her.

And I didn't think it was going to be as big of a thing, but then it felt like it kind of blew up into something bigger. Everyone was asking, "Whose idea was this?" and it turned out to be Genevieve's. So that's where Rachel is in a better position, in my opinion, because no one is really suspecting her. No one knows.

You know what I'm saying? But it's like, yes, everyone knows Genevieve and Teenie, like, mm-mm. Well, now, Genevieve is kind of at the bottom, and she is such an intimidating player, I think, in the minds of the others. So, I don't know how she's going to necessarily be able to come back from that. No, I know. I don't know.

"Like, I could, like, that's the thing too. It's like, you want to, like, that's what's so annoying about it. I haven't heard the word 'big moves' in a while. Are people even saying that anymore? See, I think one of the things about the new era is that we started a new era where it's like, 'Hey, gotta make a big move, gotta take out whoever's the biggest threat.' And then what happens is you make the big move, you take out the big threat, and guess what? Now you're the big threat. Now you're the person. Exactly. Yeah, and it's so boring. But for Genevieve, I thought she kind of stumbled onto a good idea: 'Hey, Saul's not the biggest threat. He's the medium threat. I'm going to take out a medium threat, and then I won't be considered the big threat because I just took out a medium threat.' Yeah, but it doesn't matter."

It doesn't matter because it's like, well, whoever just did something is—aha! You just did something. You just did it, so you're done. It's true. Like, you're done. So it just, in my opinion too, and I've said this, like, I know it's not smart.

But it's a lot more fun to watch. I think that's a big part of why people were interested in the show. When you're on "Survivor," you shouldn't be a little more inactive—no! You should be active. That's why I loved watching "Rome."

Was he smart out there? No. But was he fun to watch? Yes, I'm speaking as a viewer. It's like, as a fan, I don't want to—I'm sorry.

I feel like that's why a lot of people you've been with—well, no, there are a lot of reasons for the Gatler win. But in this new era, so many people feel like they have to stay under the radar. They think people can't know about their actions, and it becomes so boring to watch. I really appreciate it when things actually happen.

I like chaos. I like people, you know? I do enjoy watching them eventually turn on their alliances. However, with this season, I'm having a hard time connecting. I'll be real: I'm an emotional person, and I watch for different reasons. That's the truth.

I don't. I like watching chaos, and I like watching crazy. So when Rome left, I knew he was not like the others.

People were saying how ridiculous he was. And just like that, he wasn't great at a lot of things, but he was so much fun.

And he—how I looked at him—as someone who went out to have fun. He was like someone who approached life as if he were playing Survivor, engaging in the game fully, though perhaps not always in the smartest way. It was as if he had a checklist, determined to tick everything off his bucket list.

I'm going to make sure I do this and look for an idol. As someone who's been out there and a fan, that's fun for me. I want to see someone who's doing something. I don't necessarily need the smart moves; I don’t.

But what I'm missing is the connections with people. I think, I don’t know who it was who just said that we’re just a random mix of people, and it’s all chaotic as far as who’s close with whom. It's a bunch of people with broken relationships and those who have turned on each other. You have Annie, Rachel, Sam—there's no loyalty there. I need some loyalty, other than Sue and Gabe. That was something, you know what I mean? Sue, Gabe, and Caroline was kind of a solid group, and now Caroline has screwed over Sue. It's just frustrating to see. I would actually like to witness people working together, forming alliances, and expressing emotions, rather than a group of people constantly betraying each other. I have enjoyed the season and have had a lot of fun, but it seems like what you're saying—and I think I agree with this—is that when it comes to retelling the story of this season to someone, what has the story of Survivor 47 been? It's been somewhat of a mishmash. Other than the emotional moment from this guy, Andy, who came back from it, there's not much of a coherent story. In your season, there was a clear narrative with Carolyn, Jam Jam, and Carson, where they bonded and managed to stick together despite the odds. That created a real story arc. Up to this point, we haven’t really gotten a solid narrative for Survivor 47.

I don't, like, because I'm enjoying it, but I just want to see... like, it's... it is. I enjoy watching it, even during the vote-outs when it's like, "Oh my gosh, this person betrayed that person." And I guess you could argue, okay, Caroline and Sue. Caroline did it last night to Sue. I like seeing Sue's emotions and Sue being like, "I can't stand Kyle."

And that whole montage—that was a great moment. Yeah. But it's like, that's real. That's how Sue is feeling.

But again, I liked the connection of, like, okay, these two are going to stick together, Gabe and Gabe, and now that's even out the window. And then with Teeny and Jenny there with Teeny, and, uh, what's your dog doing, Carolyn? I don't want him to; he's probably going to spit up his bones, so I didn't want him to do that. Okay, how's he doing? He's good; he's way hyper. Everyone who meets him literally says, "I can tell that that's your dog," because I think people say that you are like your pet. Yeah, and so he's just really great, though. I love him; he's my best friend. Yeah, I know when we talked last year, you said that he has to have a certain diet or he's going to—oh, he died, Rob? Oh, that's it. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh my god, I've grieved it. He was ready to go, but this one's hairless too. He died. I had to put him to sleep.

So he was older than Chris. They didn't feel like he was ready, but he was ready. I found this one dog, and I felt like I wasn't ready to get another pet. Losing a pet is incredibly hard because you don’t want to replace them; nothing can replace them. But I knew I needed another hairless dog—I just did. And then I found Jerry. Yes! Okay, well, I'm happy for you. You're probably thinking, "What? I can't believe this person brought up Kramer, my deceased dog." Oh, trust me, it's okay. I love these dogs because when I adopted the first one, I noticed that some people make fun of dogs or even of hairless breeds. Even now, when I go to the dog park with my hairless dog, people ask, "What's wrong with him?" That's what I love about these dogs; they are different. Every time I go to the dog park and a little kid tries to pet them, it's literally a teachable moment, and I get to say, "You know what?"

He was born that way, and it's okay to be a little bit different. That's what I have in my dog: beautiful, deeper. Carolyn, how do you feel about there being a Caroline on the season?

Is that annoying? I can't stand it. I don't like it. Is it bad to say that? I don't like it.

That's too close to my name. Yeah, it is. I wouldn’t like that. I was lucky that I played in a time when there was Boston Rob, and then there were two additional Robs in his first season. That's why they had to call him Boston Rob. Then there was a Rob with two B's who had a skateboard, and then I came on. People started asking, "How many Robs are there every single season on that show?" But they haven't had another Rob since then. I think it would be really annoying if they had another Rob on Survivor.

And I know that, like, that's why I think a lot of people try to do the whole nickname thing. You never thought about that? It's a way to differentiate yourself. You know, I was on a tribe with Boston Rob, and then they called me Rob C. Big Tom called me "Little Rob." I didn't like that.

Exactly. They shouldn’t even cast people like that in one season. It’s too much.

I think that's why there are people who try, like, in July, or you were like, "I want to," like you don't want to be a David. You don't want a common name because you're not going to stand out. It's true; it kind of takes away from the uniqueness. Not everyone can do that either, but I think there are only two Robs: there's Boston Rob and then who are the other ones? Yeah, well, thank God they call him Boston Rob; even when I'm not around, they still call him Boston Rob. It's hard not to. Like, what is, like, you know what I'm saying? But you're Rob, and that's Boston Rob. That's it.

It's true. So, tell me about Gabe. What did you think about Gabe? Do you want to come back to someone else? No, because I want to be like, okay, I think Gabe was playing great.

He's just not someone that I'm rooting for, so I have a hard time talking about Gabe in any positive way. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, but I need to be able to talk about people, even those I'm not really rooting for. But yes, I just wasn't. Yeah, but I think that's okay. You could choose not to root for Gabe.

What was it about him? Was it that he was overconfident? Overconfident? That dance? I know.

Uh-uh. And then there's the whole underestimation of Sue. I genuinely believe she's coming back, and people are completely underestimating her—it's true. Sue is making a return this season, and I think she's ready to show everyone what she's capable of. I wasn't sure if you were implying that Sue wouldn't be relevant, but I think she's very much in the mix. While she may not have been in the forefront, I feel like people have viewed her as someone on the outskirts, primarily associated with Gabe. Can we talk a little bit about Sue? I have some thoughts coming into this season. Here’s Sue.

And I was like, you know how it is when the new cast comes out. They say, "Okay, this is the new this person. This is the new that person." I said, "Okay, here's Sue. This is the new — this is the next Carolyn."

Now, nobody, there could never be another Carolyn. But I kind of felt like, okay, well, this is... Well, I thought that Sue was like a Carolyn type. I thought Sue was going to be a big character. But I have to say that, up to this point, Sue has not really lived up to that expectation.

Okay, well, this may have been an original thought from Rob, but Sue has not been like you at all, I don't think. No, Rob, are you kidding? I'm not saying that—I love how everyone is unique and different in their own way. I think that even when we make assumptions about people, like saying, "That's going to be the next Aussie," there won't be a next Aussie. There isn't, and I'm not comparing myself to anyone else. What about Kyle, though? Look at him; he's won four challenges. No, no, it's not just about the wins, but you know what I'm saying. I just feel like I don’t want to see replicates of other people. I think Sue is different, and I'm just surprised you said that. Yeah. Okay. Well, did I offend you, Carolyn?

No, but like, girl, I just—I've never heard that. I'm shocked! I didn't get that from Sue. I think Sue is really sassy, and I love what she's doing with the makeup out there, like with the mud and contour. Is she using mud as makeup? Absolutely! Can I confirm that? No, but I can say with 100% certainty that I can't confirm it, since I haven't talked to Sue. But yes, I think Sue is definitely doing her makeup out there, and I love it! So can you talk that through for me?

Because I've heard people say, "Okay, well maybe she's doing a facial. Maybe she's using the mud. She's contouring, Rob." Have you ever contoured? No.

Carolyn, I don't even know what contouring is. Oh gosh, neither did Carson. So, it's literally like, that's a work of art. The fact that she's able to do that without a mirror and is doing it perfectly on her cheekbone is incredible. When the lights and cameras hit her face, you can see her cheekbone perfectly.

So, when the lights and the cameras hit her face, you see her cheekbones so defined. You can see her lips and how they are accentuated by the way the lights and cameras are hitting her face. It highlights all of the right features. Is she a game changer? Will more people start using dirt as makeup? Absolutely.

I use the charcoal as eyeliner, and I’m there like, "Why not?" I also use it as eyeshadow to create a smoky eye. Absolutely! You get so bored out there sometimes. I don't care.

That was— you know what I would do? I would take the charcoal and try to make it look like I had abs. I think that nobody's ever tried that before, but wouldn't that be something? But you know what? It would be bad because then people would say, "Oh, he's a threat. Look at Rob; he's very defined and muscular. We have to get rid of him." Exactly! So I think that maybe I would have to do the opposite. I would try to make it look like I was in bad shape. I don't know how I would do that with the dirt. Oh, my God. It's absurd!

No, you really have to deal with things like that out there. I think what isn't talked about enough—maybe I'm just not hearing it—is how much there is to do. Yes, it’s go, go, go, but there is also so much downtime. There is a significant amount of time in this new era.

Okay, now I sound like a hypocrite because it is go, go, go. There definitely are times when it feels too fast, and you think, "Oh my gosh, just give me a down day." But there is a lot of downtime; you're just sitting around with time in between activities. Even after the challenge, I can remember sitting in the dirt, looking up at the tree, and playing I Spy. That wasn't fun. It's more enjoyable to do things like bowling or when Q did hide and seek.

Those are the things that make it fun out there. But sometimes you don't have the energy. "I Spy" is not fun; that is horrible. It was awful.

Yeah, it's very boring. There are moments where I know we're playing a game, I get it. But you'll go crazy out there. It's like doing makeup, having Jam Jam do my makeup.

Or seeing Sue take a little bit of time to do her makeup. You get to do fun stuff like that out there. It's a lot of boring time too. Carolyn, we saw in the episode this week that there was the rice negotiation, and yes, you wanted to sit out for the rice, right? I should have, like, Carson was sick, and then they got the rice for the tribe. I didn't want to rob—oh, you didn't want to?

Because of the challenge, I thought, "You know what? I got a tattoo on my armpit." Specifically for this. You got an armpit tattoo for this challenge? Yes, I did, because I had this dream and goal of doing an endurance-type challenge and having my arms up. And here we are!

So that's what my driving force was with this challenge. I was like, I can't sit out. I have this armpit tattoo that's going to keep me motivated. This may sound crazy, but it's the truth. I felt that I needed to do this challenge because I thought, "I'm going to look at my armpit and see that I have a smiley face." When I see that smiley face, it's going to carry me through the challenge.

It did not. So, alright, did you end up doing the challenge, or did you sit out? I did it, and I was the first one out. I remember Jeff saying, "You, Carolyn, first one out, didn't even..." and I was like, "Why did that happen?" So, did you get the armpit tattoo? You had the armpit tattoo?

You didn't get it. Yes, you got it for Survivor. For Survivor. For an endurance challenge. I thought, if anything, I'm going to do great at an endurance challenge, and I'm going to have that to carry me through.

I was out first. I should have known better. Looking at my challenge history, I don't think I should even be trying to compete. So, I was not one of the people who sat out; I should have been. Was that a painful tattoo to get in the armpit?

No. No, I can handle pain, and it was more tickly, yeah. Carolyn, I don't have any tattoos, and I think about getting tattoos, but not now. At my age, it's just kind of like... my skin is too flabby now. And if you haven't gotten a tattoo before, you might feel like you can't hold it. No, actually screw it, Rob! Get a tattoo. I take that back—don't think too much about it. I think I waited too long. If I had, like, 12 tattoos, I wouldn't think anything of it. But now it feels so precious, like, "Oh, what's going to be the tattoo?" I should just get a smiley face in my armpit.

Everybody does that, though. That's the problem with a lot of things in life. We overthink things. So whether it’s a tattoo or something else, I'm not going to overthink it. Yes, you could say it's on your body for the rest of your life.

I don't have a tattoo. There are no tattoos I regret. There have been a few, but I cover them up with something else. Yeah, I make a new memory.

So don't think that's it. Think too much. What if you already know what the most painful tattoo to get is? I got my eyebrows tattooed before I went out on Survivor because I was afraid they'd fall off in the water, and I did it right before.

So I looked crazy, and it looked like Sharpie brows, but my friend does an amazing job. However, it hurts—like, really, really bad. It hurt. That's the only tattoo that I've ever gotten, and it's a tattoo; she tattoos. That's the only one that I've ever been like, "This hurts." All the other ones, I can handle.

Physical pain is something I can handle; it's the mental pain that feels like torture. I can endure physical pain, like getting tattooed, but let's go back to the smiley face tattoo you got while on Survivor. After that, you went to the tattoo parlor and said, "Okay, I need to get a smiley face tattoo in my armpit." Did the tattoo artist ask you why you were doing that? No, it wasn't unusual for me; it's just what we do—we get tattooed. It didn't feel weird at all. I think it's because I have tattoos in so many random places that it's just part of me. Who is anyone to question where I choose to get a tattoo? Perhaps an artist might question it since getting a smiley face in the armpit is unconventional; people often think of the armpit as an unhappy place. However, what's been really cool is that I've had quite a few people send me pictures of their own smiles after they saw it on the season.

Like they did a shot of it, and I had quite a few people send me pictures of their smiley face tattoos afterward. Wow, yeah, it's cute. It's just little.

It's just... yeah. So, do you feel like Jeff made a good trade by swapping seven shots in the dark for a bag of rice? Here's the deal with those shots in the dark: I just think they're worthless.

Like, get rid of them. I truly believe that when we were out, did it stir up the vote sometimes? No. Yes, but they were so… when you think of the probability, okay, we know how many times it's worked in the new era. You know what I'm saying? It just wasn't… I feel safe with my shot in the dark. No, it didn't; it never had that effect on me. Nine times out of ten, I didn't know where mine was. Do you know how many times I would wake up and it would be in the sand? Or other people would wake up and be like, "Hey, I think you lost your shot in the dark"? That happened so many times! Even Kyle was like, "I can't believe that you actually went for this. You took my idea. I can't believe it!" That was cool, and as a fan being out there, I would be like, "Wow, this made history," and I would feel like this is really cool. But other than that, I just can't stand the shots in the dark anyway.

And so I feel like they're not that valuable. If you have to rely on that thing, you know, that's how I feel. Well, did you like it when Rachel played the shot in the dark instead of playing her idol? That was smart, yes. So yes, there are moves like that where it's like, okay, that makes sense, and I get that. But when it actually comes down to it, I just don't feel like they have that much power. I think they’re very good at making everybody panicky about the vote. If someone is going to say, "Oh, they might play their shot in the dark," then the question becomes, "Okay, what do we do?"

We need a backup plan. I feel like, if anything, it made things more straightforward for everybody. So yes, I like what Gabe said; that makes sense. It takes away the ambiguity. It's more straightforward: this is what it's going to be.

But I just don't feel like giving those away. What did you think? Were you like, "Wow"? I was surprised that Jeff went for this because I didn't think it was that big of a deal for people. I was wondering how much longer they could use the shot in the dark.

Exactly. And I don't think people actually look at that. Maybe I'm the only one, but on my season, those things were falling out of people's pockets left and right, and nobody seemed to care. Yeah, it doesn't seem like, especially at this point in the game, that it matters. I kind of feel like in the pre-merge, it was a bigger deal.

Yes. You see, with Maddie getting voted out, no one received any votes at tribal council. That was quite crazy. Well, Jamie actually played the Shot in the Dark.

"What, Jamie? She was safe. Oh my God. How do I not...? I was thinking in terms. Yes."

I was just thinking about that. They didn't vote for her. Yes, she did a good job of saying, "Hey, I'm playing my shot in the dark," and then nobody voted for her.

I really feel that at this point in the game, the "shot in the dark" is not very useful. It's something that I really think doesn’t need to be there, in my opinion. Just no. But it was cool; it made history.

It, um, it was cool for Kyle. Like, I did. I was like, oh my gosh. Just him recognizing that, like, that's fun as a fan. But, like, I don't think that the Shot in the Darks is that powerful. Carolyn, if you were out on Survivor 47, who do you feel like you would be most likely to be working with?

In this game, can I ask you who you think first? Who do I think you would be working with? Hmm.

So I'm trying to think of the players you worked with in your season. I wonder if maybe Teenie could be the person you would be working with? Teenie, absolutely. I think so. Here's what my season taught me: I don't know how you connect with people, Rob, but I connect with them by sharing and opening up.

And that's the thing about Survivor, especially on my season. There were moments with me and Franny where we actually shared some of our past experiences. However, for the most part, there wasn't a lot of that on my season. I did have those moments with Jam Jam and Carson, but a lot of people didn't share, and I shouldn't have been shocked because we were playing Survivor, and not everyone opens up.

I want to put that out there. But it's like, that's how I connect with people. I can't help it, and that's why I struggled even during the early merge. I can't go into a room and just make normal conversation with people; I don't know how to do that.

I want to immediately talk about your trauma, your pain, your backstory—what brought you here. I want to dive deep. Not everyone is comfortable with that, and there are so many surface-level conversations, especially at the merge in the tribe. I am not going to be that person.

Anyone wants to come and talk to you, but then they'll say, "I'm not sharing that with you." For the most part, even after a few days, people just didn't want to share. If Teeny were to open up like she did in the confessional, then I think we would be good, but I need to feel that connection. From day one, we were telling each other our life stories because there are certain people with whom you just connect and feel that bond. Other than that, I didn’t experience much of that. I need that connection with someone I can trust, and obviously, we were all over the place. Well, something from your season that I really related to was when the merge started, and you felt like, "Hey, all these people in the merge form this big group, and I don't really fit in." That's something I truly experienced as well.

I feel like that—like a group of people coming together. I really struggle to fit in with a group, absolutely. And it's like, where? And I truly am. I've said this recently: I am blessed with the ability to not give a shit.

I don't care if I, let's say I walk into a room and everyone is looking at me, but you can't really do that on Survivor. But let's say I’m not going to get embarrassed because I'm alone on TV, or I'm not going to get embarrassed because I look like a freak, or because I burned my shorts and there's a big hole, or because I have a big poop stain on my backside. I don't care. Did any of those things happen? A few.

Okay, Rob, don't look at me like that. I'm going to avert my gaze.

I'm going to avert my gaze. You know, whatever, I'm not normal, and I get that. It's like, I always know that it's going to be hard for me to go into a group and say normal things that everyone else is talking about. So, yeah, you hear me? I like sweating, and I don't remember it going down like that. I asked Franny and Matt at the fair if they were seriously staring at me like that. I didn't remember it like that, but again, what did they say? She said, "Yes, Caroline, we were literally staring." I asked, "Did they edit it like that?" She replied, "No, we were literally like, what the hell?" I'm like, well, that's the story of my life.

Like, I'm used to it. I'm used to the fact that I'm not going to fit in everywhere, but that's okay. I try to convey this to the people I meet with during my sessions. For me, everything that is different about you, or all those areas where you feel like you don't fit in, is what makes you beautiful. I believe that everything different about people is beautiful. I truly love it. I don’t want to conform, so I really take pride in that. If I'm not fitting in with anyone, I’ll sit over here alone and talk to my dog, and that's okay.

It is so exhausting, Rob, and you know this. Can you imagine going into a group or having a conversation and feeling like you have to put on a front as someone who you really aren't? I don't have the ability to do that. I just can't. It was no different on Survivor.

I can't fake it and go out with these people and say, "So Danny, tell me about the car." Cannolis. I don't fit in with Danny, and it's the same reason I struggled on the journey. Those were people who didn't want to hear from me.

They didn't really respect me. And it's like, that's okay. They're not going to get deep and emotional with me. Come on, read the room, Caroline. Did you feel like Rachel this week when Rachel was sitting there with Sam and Kyle and they were really going back and forth about their plans for Gabe?

And then, you know, Rachel was like, "Okay, well, you know, it's Sam." Not that it seemed like Sam and Kyle were ignoring Rachel, but it was a bit of the guys talking while Rachel was sitting back. It wasn't exactly that she was being ignored. I didn't see it that way. It was very clear that I was...

And I think that speaks to how Rachel presents herself versus how I present myself. Rachel's demeanor is different; I'm more like the squeaky wheel, while Rachel comes across as someone who is sitting back and being strategic, listening carefully. That's how I perceived it. It's not that they were ignoring her or disrespecting her; they still valued her opinion. I did not feel that way at all for a large part of the game. Not at all.

You said that you burned your shorts when you were on Survivor. We saw Teenie. Yeah, Teenie of the game. Not at all. You mentioned that you burned your shorts during Survivor.

We saw a teeny fire. Yeah, a teeny fire. The bag went on fire for her teeny… uh, what do you do? That’s symbolism, and I was like, “That’s your new start.” I agreed; I was like, “Yeah, what do you do?” That’s the thing. So many people freak out. I had so many people saying, “You burned your shorts!” And I’m like, “Whatever, let it happen. There are worse things that could happen. I have a hole in my shorts.” Were you drying them? How did you burn the shorts?

I was drying them, and everyone told me, "You're going to burn them; they're too close to the fire." And I was like, "If they burn, they burn." And they burned. But they were fine. It's as if everyone else around me was stressing out about the hole in my shorts. They probably looked cool.

I loved it, and I'm like, it's fine. Same with her bag; it's functional. She's like, there's nothing wrong with it. So it's like, this is a new start.

The bag still works. Do you think she lost any clothes, or was it just the bag? I think it was just the bag. But at that point, so many people are gone.

Like, I'm sure they're thinking, "I don't see it." That was scary because I can imagine that what happened was that Teenie was sleeping by the fire. Is that what happened? Yeah.

And then, like, her head is on that. That's the thing—it’s like that's your pillow, that's your blanket, that's your everything, and you're literally sleeping in the dirt. Did you sleep in the shelter during your season? We slept in the shelter, but our shelter burned down.

We had a lot of fun! I won’t remember everything; it was too long ago. I remember there was a whole fire incident with a guy named Butch, who kept saying we needed more firewood. He collected a huge amount of it. Then we went to the reward challenge, and when we came back, not only was the whole shelter burned down, but all of our bags were in there too. Was this on TV? You were on TV? Yes, yes! And can I tell you what the worst part was? Was this really on TV? You were on TV?

Yes, yes. And can I tell you what the worst part was? All of our other clothes were in there. So then I basically, for about eight days, felt like a survivor with just a tank top and the shorts I was wearing—that's it. Why didn't people move, like the production team?

That's a question for the survivor at the Amazon production. That's crazy! They used to say that they would be fired if they interfered with what was going on, but yeah, it was not good, Carolyn, and we were freezing. I can't imagine. Because you're freezing at night.

That's the thing. I basically just had a little tank top and the shorts I was wearing. That's it. That was the worst. And then it rained every night after.

It was like the rainy season in the Amazon. It was horrible. That's the hell of the game. Well, Amazon. And it was terrible.

The worst. That's the hell of the game. Well, they talked about this on the On Fire podcast about what it's like when it rains. That's really the worst, where I get, you know, whatever the survivor version of PTSD is. Sometimes it's like I'm outside and it's raining, and I think, "Oh my God, that would be horrible!" Then you're freezing, and everything's wet, and you don’t have any clothes—like, that is truly hell. I'm sorry.

No, it's the worst. The worst thing about Survivor is, you know, if it doesn't rain. Rain, you know. I didn't play in the new era, but I say all the time that you could do 100 days of Survivor if it doesn't rain. If it doesn't rain, the rain is the absolute worst. We didn't have a ton of it, but yes, it completely affects you; you're just shivering and you're all wet, and everything's wet. You're cold and miserable. I think what people don’t get is that, on the show, it looks like it’s just raining at night, and by the next day, everybody is just groggy. But no, these people didn’t even go to sleep because they were soaking wet from the rain all night. Plus, there’s a hierarchy when it comes to the tarp.

And I remember when we came; it was, it really was, it was Lauren. All of them, like all of Rock 2, were in the shelter. We were sleeping in the dirt. When it came down to the tarp, it was just me, Carson, and Jam. We were on the outskirts. I was like, "Can I get a little bit?"

Nope. We were pushed out. We weren't even on our way. Under the tarp, I said, "Oh my gosh, can I just—can somebody just let me in?" It's awful.

Yeah, that's how it was. We were completely on the outskirts, even when it came to sleeping arrangements. You can tell where you are in the game, right? Oh yeah, that's true.

It's true. The kings are in the shelter and all of us are freaks. It was me, Carson, and Jam. I'm not kidding you; we were literally on the outskirts. I was like, "Can I get a little bit under the tarp?" No. Oh, God.

Anyway, now I'm thinking about it, and I'm like, no, thank you. Carolyn, I would love to hear a little bit about your podcasting experience because you've had some interesting people on your podcast. Most recently, you spoke with Russell Hance on your show. Russell is one of those individuals— and I don't want to say "characters." I've talked with Russell many times over the years on the podcast.

Russell, I feel like there are two sides to him. Absolutely. For me, during my season, he had started some things. I've heard about Russell and even read some of his work where I'm like, what is he doing?

But he was starting some stuff with me on Twitter during the season, and I'm like, what? What is he writing? Oh, I forgot about that; yes, you were feuding on Twitter. Yes, which I'm just like, come on, it's Russell. But at the same time, I was wondering what is going on in this person's life. I looked at it as if this person just wants to stay relevant and seeks attention. He likes to smoke; it's pretty simple. But at the end of the day, I was still left thinking, what is going on here? And that's where I think a lot of people would say, "Who cares? Why are you even digging into it?"

Let that blah blah. Well, I was curious. I thought, what is going on in this person's life that they feel the need to call me these names? And for what? What?

Are you okay? I talked to him once or twice since then. And then, like everyone else, I was thinking, "Oh my gosh." When we started the podcast, I thought, "Oh, he's so controversial." I was like, "We shouldn't have him on."

And then I'm like, we shouldn't have him on. And then I'm like, you know what? I've talked to him a few times, and I'm seeing a different person than the one online. So, I really wanted to just dive into that.

"Like, who are you as a person? Because we know who you are on Twitter, and we know who you are on TV. But is that really who you are? He was so vulnerable and so open. Am I excusing his past behavior?"

I don't know. I've done a lot of terrible things in my life too—many things that I'm ashamed of and embarrassed about in my past. I mean, it's not anything recent, but back when I wasn't myself, I thought, "Okay, I'll give him a chance. I'll talk to him."

And it's like, he gets deep, he gets real, he opens up. Yes, he is 100% this Twitter villain and this villain on TV. I believe that he just never knew how to shut it off. For everyone, we all have the struggles we deal with, and we often come off in certain ways to mask that. He’s very sensitive, and I enjoy having a conversation with him. He was, I did.

And I liked his perspective because whether you love him or hate him, just like Richard Hatch, you can't deny the impact they've had on the game and how they've shaped it. Well, certainly. And that really is a great tie back to Gabe, who said, "I want to keep the spirit of Russell Hantz alive in the game." It really is kind of a shame that Russell is someone who Survivor really celebrated for quite some time.

That really, when you look back at that era in which he played, I've called Russell "Survivor Viagra." He is. He came along at a time when Survivor was not so much longing for characters. They had just come off of a season where they had Tyson, Coach, JT, Steven, Todd, and Amanda—characters. But in terms of gameplay and what he did in bringing together the hidden immunity idol as something that could be used as a weapon, he truly made an impact.

You know, it really was not thought of in that way before Russell, and the fact that he could just go out and create paranoia by looking for it. Then also what Gabe, I think, tried to bring back was that he had his people, and he was going to stay loyal to them. This really created panic around, "Well, they're not moving, so we better do something. They might play the idol, and what are we going to do?"

And it really created a lot of chaos and interesting gameplay. He really brought that to the show, and the viewers became addicted to Russell, especially in Survivor 19 and Survivor 20. Then, they took a season off from him and brought him back in Survivor 22. However, it wasn't even Russell himself; they brought back his nephew instead. Maybe that wasn't a decision that should have been made, because his nephew was very young at the time they brought him back after having been through the ringer of gameplay. It’s also possible that Russell was a little too hard on his nephew.

And then the family is like, "Oh, you screwed up." He comes back and is not in the right headspace to play a second time. And then also they bring... But you blame him, Rob. I have so much empathy for Brandon because, you know what?

And here's the problem. I think he was 18, right? When he played? I thought he was 19 or 20, but here's the deal: he received so much hate from his family. The family was hard on him at the time.

Oh my gosh, who comes out there and asks, "What are you doing?" Then Russell confronts him at the reunion. Here's the problem: Russell feels like he has to play this character, and then Brandon comes back feeling like he has to do the same. It all just explodes. I truly believe that Russell has not really known how to turn it off since leaving. Then his brother plays on "Big Brother" and gets evicted from the show. I think CBS is a little bit like, "Alright, you know too much. We did too much with the Hantz family, so let's step back from it."

Let's move away from that. But isn't that what they wanted at the time? No offense, but we've been re-watching, and he has that "dumb girls' alliance." Yeah, that's somewhat true, but at that time, you were in the Amazon with the whole peanut butter situation. That's what was happening, even back then, with people in their bikinis and getting naked. That was the era, so with Russell and his "dumb girls' alliance," that's what was going on. So why is he considered such a bad person for that? I don't know.

I think it's all the stuff he did outside of the game. No, it's not about anything Russell does on the show, but I think that because he ends up being active on social media, he says some crazy stuff. I remember there’s a clip of Jeff where he's like, “I think Russell's a bad guy, and we don't want him to play again.” But I believe Russell probably would have played again in Game Changers or another season. But I told him, "You need to just shut up outside of this; you don't know how to turn it on." And we're living in 2024! He did say, though, that he looks at Twitter, TikTok, and all of it as TV.

He doesn't look at it as any different. I'm like, you can't do that. You can't because it's offensive. I think that he would have been so much more successful in future endeavors. I'm like, why aren't you on The Traitors? Do you know what I mean?

Or how else do the villains need Russell? You know what I’m saying? So I said, “You're not getting called unless he is. I don't know.” But you know what? It's like, because you're so offensive online, turn that down about twenty notches. He just goes one step too far. Exactly! But he's a good person underneath, and I think that maybe that ability to go one step too far is what made him into the great television character that he was for the show.

If he didn't have that gear, would he have achieved all the greatness he had at that time? But, you know, I think that the thing about Russell—and I hope I'm not getting myself in trouble by talking about this—is that where Russell excelled was when there was an editor presenting a version of him. However, with social media, when Russell became his own editor, that’s where the problems arose; it was as if the guardrails were off on social media. I remember him asking, “Are we going to go live?” and I thought, “Are you crazy? I will never go live—no way!” An edited version of Russell was always the best version. But, again, we live in a society where people get written off, and then it becomes the trendy, cool thing to disregard those individuals. You know what I'm saying?

Like we all should give people a chance for redemption. And Russell once went to Redemption Island. Yeah, exactly. I'm sorry, I just really like people who— I don't know— we all have differences of opinion, and he clearly is somebody who has struggled, and I don't care.

I've got so many people who message me telling me, "Don't you give him a chance? He's just lying to you." And I'm like, "Okay, so what if he is? Then I'll get burned." I don't know, but I like to give people a chance. Yeah, Carolyn, I feel like—tell me if I'm off base with this—you’re kind of like your shorts. People are like, "Carolyn, those shorts are getting a little too close to the fire." But you’re like, "No, I like that."

That's fine with me. If it gets a little burned, who cares? So what? I'm going to get a little close to the fire. Let me.

"Let me. They're my shorts. Let me get them a little closer to the fire. Who cares if they get a little singed? I'll be fine."

I can, and that's the thing. I'm like, I can handle myself. Also, I do feel like I have this ability to make people open up and share when I talk to them. So, I've enjoyed my conversations with Russell. There’s just so much more to him as a person than all of the nonsense. But I feel like people like Russell think they have to go into rooms or conversations and be this particular person.

And you don't. I'm like, Russell, I enjoy talking to you. You aren't being this crazy friend. You're a bit of a character. You don't need to be.

But that's what happens in real life too. And Teenie talks about this in the episode where I feel like I have to be this way or be that way. We get put in a box. Yes! Fight it!

For anyone listening, fight it because it is so exhausting. Feeling like you have to be anything—can you imagine going into one room and I’m like a chameleon? Oh my God. It’s exhausting to feel like you have to be anything.

Can you imagine going into one room and feeling like a chameleon? Oh my God, it's too exhausting. It's important to be okay with being alone sometimes. It's perfectly fine to just stay in with your dog.

Like, that is way less stressful than going out. If you do go out to places, I am fine with that. Even for the watch parties and stuff that Carson and I would attend, we would be eating macaroni at the bar with our juice boxes. You know? We don't need to be part of what is considered the cool thing to do. No, we'll be enjoying our kids' meal. It's just, if you don't fit in, you don't have to.

Or literally, you know that you like pasta and a juice box. No, that happened. That happened. I prefer to just be by myself; I don't need to be with everyone, you know? It's okay. It's way more stressful when you put yourself in these environments, and then, huh, everybody. No, like sometimes I don't fit in, and a lot of the time I don't fit in. And that's okay. How was talking with Richard Hatch? He's so smart. He's the definition of what you just said about players who can separate it.

And, like, he's a Genevieve. He's a Genevieve, but Genevieve, I'm sorry, has emotions a little bit. I see. Yeah, no, Richard, Richard very much.

I spent a fair amount of time with Richard when we were on the All-Stars, and then after we were out of the game at Ponderosa. What did you think of him? Have you talked to him? When's the last time you spoke to him?

I have not spoken to him recently. Again, he's one of those people. I think he is an incredibly interesting person, and I believe he has very interesting things to say about many different subjects. Thank you.

He does. And I can't really keep up. He's so... He'll text me things, and I'm like, honestly, you need to put this into a phone call because I don't even know what you just said. He's really smart, and he's deep, and he's a thinker.

And he does well at these games. I mean, he didn't do so well on "House of Villains," but come on, that was crazy. He's another person who changed this game. I will say that I think Richard is a very smart guy.

And I think that he's a very interesting guy. I don't think that he has a lot of empathy. Oh, none. None. He doesn't get it.

And I think that makes him not such a great player. I believe he was an innovative player, but he is, as Russell might say, a flawed player. You have to have empathy to be good at Survivor and to be great at Survivor. You have to!

And the way he talks, I was like, "Oh my gosh." But he recognizes it. He was saying, "Like, even on House of Villains, this is where you went wrong." And it's like, he can't even fake having empathy. Nope. And that's where this isn't football. It's not like that; you have to—at least—you have to understand that this is emotional, whether you want to accept it or not. You have to build bonds. He has none. He is just like, "Nope." Yeah, he's on a different level, but again, he's got to adapt a little more. That's what he mentioned with House of Villains. He's like, "It's a whole different ballgame now, and I did not adapt to this."

Situation: I didn't know. I did not realize. Who else have you interviewed this season? Sandra.

Who was it? Reed Kelly, Sandra. Now, Reed, I'm watching. How was Reed? We're watching Survivor: San Juan del Sur.

It's been 10 years since Survivor: San Juan del Sur. Are we watching it? Yeah, we're watching it week by week because it's the 10th anniversary. Oh, I can't! Here's the deal with Reed, too.

He's one of those people who's so talented and so great at everything. But that speech—I'm sorry—did you plan that? And yes, he did.

I think he was writing and journaling before. That was, oh my gosh, I would never be able to talk like that, but it was so beautifully written. I love rewatching it because it really shows his personality. He’s a great friend of mine, and I really respect him. He truly loves me.

Well, he's so talented at everything; he's one of those people who excels at everything. What I love about Sandra is, and you know this, she's the most realistic person around. She just does things effortlessly. I could ask her the day before, "Will you do the podcast?" and she'd say, "Sure, what time do you need me?" I really like her. She helped me a lot before Traders; she was like Mike—a great person to rely on and call. She was just so helpful. She genuinely cares. She's so real. I love Sandra. I don't know if she would...

That's her superpower. It is, but she's so real about it. There are certain people where it's like, I don't know if I'd click with you. But Sandra? She doesn't care; she clicks with everyone. I would love to get to know her more; I didn't realize she was so amazing.

Like, because she was someone I would have been scared to reach out to. It's true. And then the traders happened, and that’s when I realized, "Hi, she is so amazing." I can’t say enough good things about her. She’s so real and so natural, and just so—okay, I gotta, oh.

I can see why she would do well out there. She just does it, and she makes you comfortable. I really like her. Mm-hmm. Sandra, do you ever have her on here?

Oh, many times. When was the last time? I just feel like she's so... Yeah, we talked to her after the traders. After the traders, yeah.

She's amazing, so yeah. I just saw her at UNC a couple of weeks ago. Oh, yeah, and she's involved in all of this stuff. But even the way she's able to do it is impressive, kind of like you. You're very focused, and you can keep people engaged while staying on track.

And that's where I struggle with the podcast. Richard and I are the same way—we were talking for hours, and all of a sudden, it was dark outside because Carson's stuff wasn't working. Then it's like, "Oh crap, hours have passed!" I start going off on tangents, and Richard starts going off on tangents too. You're really good at keeping things on track; you say, "Do, do, do, let's move!" You're a great podcaster.

That's where I struggle. I'll just go on into oblivion. Yeah. But you know what? I think that you are a good tandem of, you know, like I, this is what I say about podcasts: a great podcast, and I'll say it this way, needs one organized person and one person who's a big personality.

That's what a podcast needs to be. And if it's too... Is this live right now? No? Oh, I saw the "live" up there. I got distracted.

We're recording. Oh, sorry, Rob. You're good. Okay. Yeah.

And I agree with you. If you have two people present, there needs to be a polarity between them. If you have two organized individuals but neither has a strong personality, then that won't work. Similarly, if you have two strong personalities, that also won't work.

Personalities might be fun for a little bit, but they're not going to get us anywhere. No, you're right. You're right. It's still... and that's where I feel like Carson keeps me on track. But honestly, I've been on him recently about not smiling enough. I feel like he needs to smile more, but I don't want him to fake it.

I told him, "Start smiling or you're out. You'll be replaced." Yeah, vote out your number one ally. That's very intriguing.

New Era Carolyn, I have to mention that if he’s not going to smile... and don’t you know how this is? Remember when I even told you, Rob, that you were losing your spark? You weren’t smiling for a while, which I understand because these things are long. But then I started to see that glimmer in your eye again in this podcast. I wasn't smiling either. Yeah, I feel like I told you at the end [of the previous discussion]... Yes, you were exhausted, which I don’t blame you for. You were doing 12-hour shifts. Yeah, that was a mistake. Oh, not today, not today! You're talking about the past when I wasn’t always... But your glimmer came back! The sparkle returned after a few things—maybe it was during season 43, and that could have just been because it was season 43. I don't know. But it was your glimmer, right? It came back during season 44. You know what?

I feel like this is the start of a new era for me. I think it was rough. I believe the show came back with a lot of content that people were unsure about. There was a lot of serious material; the show was very serious.

And I like to have fun. I think "Survivor" is both serious and entertaining. The best "Survivor" has a good balance of serious moments and gameplay, but it’s also fun. There are funny moments and amusing characters, and that's the peak of "Survivor" for me.

But I think that the start of the new era was very serious, and the gameplay was very jam-packed. The fans were also saying, "This is too much. This is too much." What are you supposed to talk about then, right? A lot of times, I don’t know if Survivor sees it that way. I'm kind of like the customer service department of Survivor.

I'm out here, and if they send out a product that's defective, they can't get a hold of the people who made it. They're calling customer service. And I'm like, "Hey, hello, Survivor Customer Service. How can I help you?" Like, "Yeah, you know what?"

I really didn't like it. They took all the votes away. It's like, oh, okay, let me see. Is there anything that we could do about that? Don't you feel like they—like, because I know you can't say all this—but you are very much in the spotlight; people listen to you. Do you feel like they, like, who listens to me? Even CBS's Survivor—I'm not sure, but I think they listen to a lot of things. However, I don't have a direct line to production to say, "Hey, change this." I'm sure they receive feedback, and I really do think that, in the last couple of seasons, your presence has grown significantly with the fans, which can't be ignored, Rob.

Well, I think that what I do is, in a lot of ways, give a voice to many fans, allowing them to share their ideas or even their frustrations. I believe that's a helpful part of this community that forms over time. I do think they have found a good balance in the last couple of years, especially compared to where we started in the new era. I agree, though, it's not meant to be too serious. At the end of the day, yes, this is a game, and it should be fun. I think your season marked the beginning of that shift. You know, what are we doing? I understand this is a game for a million dollars, but it should ultimately be about fun. I guess that's what 50 is all about!

So, you know, we'll see. Or joy. Yeah. So we'll see, which I do like a little bit of—not joy, though, too. But, you know.

Yeah. You know, with Almond Joy, they say sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

That's why they make mounds, which is also coconut, and can be found a lot on Survivor. Nobody eats either one—heck no! Don't tell me that's your favorite candy bar or something, or I will judge you. It's a big favorite in my house—the Almond Joy! No, it's not. Yeah, Carolyn, let me tell you about my son when he was little. We would get Almond Joys, and I would say, "Oh, I'm enjoy!" Then my son, being very little, reached into the candy bowl and took out the other candy, saying, "Oh, I'm enjoy this Snickers!" He was shocked when he thought that was what I meant. So he thought you were saying something else? Yes, yes, exactly! So you don't actually like Almond Joy? I do, I do!

What's not to love? It's coconut, almond, chocolate! No one would disagree if you asked 100 people. What's your favorite candy bar? It's not mine.

It's not my favorite, but I do like it. I think it's nice. I like it. I'm judging you. The same goes for people who like Milky Ways. No, I don't even compare a Milky Way or a Three Musketeers to an Almond Joy.

Oh, but they're all bad. Did you like the coconut when you were on Survivor? No! I mean, I ate it because I had to, but no, that wasn't something I liked. I do like coconut; it's okay, but again, I'm not going to eat it. What about kiwi?

Do you like kiwi? Yeah, I love kiwi, but I wouldn't eat it. Pineapple? Yeah, I love all of that. Okay.

I'm just saying, that wouldn't be like almond. Ugh. It wouldn't pick it out. All right, Carolyn, what else is going on for you?

Are you still cameoing? Yeah, I had to take, well, there were like two days when I had to not be on, like not take a break, but just turn it off for two days. Yeah. And what they're doing right now—so now I'm like, have you heard about this?

So I was posting all the time. I'm like, I want to beat Boston Rob. I'm never going to beat Boston Rob. And I've kind of accepted that. That's how I feel.

No, you were not. But they did this like two or three months ago. You know, three months ago, they had this ranking system. I was always number two or three—two or three. I gave up trying to beat Boston Rob.

Well, then I turned my account off because I needed to take a break for two days, like number 10 or something. I'm not going to lie, it was starting to get to me. I was like, "Oh my gosh, oh my god." But you know what, Rob? It's okay. I don't need to be Boston Robin; that's fine. I'll work my way back. We all have to come to terms with this. Carolyn, I don't want to, though. So, are these the charts? I talked to Q on the podcast the other day, and he mentioned that he turned his off for a little bit. I did, too, for two days, and now I'm number... and now I'm not. This was about a week ago.

I just had it off for two days, during which it wasn't processing requests. Boy, some people make a lot of cameos! I, I, I like it; I love it. I spent some time on it, and we recently completed her year-end review.

I have spent over 66 hours filming cameos this year. So, like, I love them. I go really deep. I've been doing 66 hours of filming cameos this year. So, like, I love them.

I go really deep. I go really personal. I love sharing. I go longer than a few minutes, and I truly enjoy doing cameos. I love it.

It's fun. See, I thought maybe I was charging too much money. I'm looking at everybody else, and I’m wondering if maybe I'm not charging enough. Maybe people are thinking, "Oh, it's not worth it."

Well, I do sales too, once in a while. You've got to mark it up and then have a sale. But also, it’s like I have just kept it at this. When I couldn't keep up with them, I was way higher, or you know what I mean? But I consistently get them.

I enjoy doing them. I love Cameo. I'm shadow banned on Cameo, and I'm not even on the charts. You gotta, Rob, you've got it, but you're so busy with others.

But, like, I can't. Some of these people are getting more cameos than me. Brad is getting more cameos than me? Well, what's crazy is we were always told—not that I want to bring attention to this—but we were always told that we couldn't do them until after the season, and now all the girls... Yeah, I don't think they care anymore. They don't care anymore, which is great.

Like last season, people were just like in the middle of the season. Yes! Because I was like, oh my gosh, how were you able to do that? You know what it's like sometimes, and you know, having been around the block for a little bit.

Maybe this isn't... Oh, maybe view the top survivors. Okay, I don't think I was looking at the top rankings. But anyway, you know, sometimes they care about things a lot, and then they sort of stop caring so much. Then somebody, like, gets in a lot of trouble, and then they start caring about things a lot again. Boston Rob is always number one, though.

Okay, that's what they tell me. I post a ton of content. Boston Rob is just one of those people who will always be in everyone's face. It's true. But I post a lot about him, and I share my experiences frequently.

I enjoy doing them. I think that shows. Yeah! So, book me on Cameo. I love doing pep talks, birthdays, anything!

Yeah, I'm looking at how far I am down the list. Now I'm getting competitive. Maybe my cameo is turned off? How is this possible? I'm not in the top 53?

Rob, don't! Okay, what am I right now? You're 10. Yeah, I'm usually 2 or 3, so do you think that wasn't messing with my self-esteem a little bit? Yeah. People who quit the show are doing better than me on Cameo.

What are you? Are you even like all the Australian Survivor people? They are just driving me crazy. I mean, I don't know, maybe I'm too accessible; that's true. Are you doing them for free? Are you on the list at all? I don't think I'm on the list, so can you see the whole list of people?

I'm looking at the top 53. I didn't know—do I need to opt into being on the list? No, this is horrible. No, don't worry about it. But people were saying that to me because I kept posting, and I'm like, I’m trying to beat Boston Rob. I couldn’t, but whatever. Frickin' Joey Amazing is destroying me.

I thought people weren't even allowed to get cameos from him. Who is that? I don't even know who that is. Joe Anglum? Oh, Joe.

Okay, I didn't know who that was. Yeah, Bruce is killing me. Trust me, I know how you're feeling right now. I can't always be there for you, but I was feeling really insecure. I must be shadow banned too. Here’s the deal: put this on your Instagram story and book a Cameo with me, and I guarantee you'll be back. I'll try it! Here's what my pitch is going to be: I got it—Christmas is coming.

Okay. Unless Q cancels Christmas. Yeah, I got it. My kids, do you know what they do in their free time? They just put stuff in the cart on Amazon.

And then my wife is like, "Well, they've been good; they deserve it." I'm like, "No, they don't. They get in trouble every day. They should get one thing." My wife is like, "It's Christmas."

You're such a Grinch. It's Christmas. Like, well, how am I going to— you call me a Grinch, and then I get no cameos? Book me, book me today!

Yeah, you'll do great! All right, I'll put that out there. Well, Carolyn, I had so much fun. Thank you!

I can't wait. Please come back. Yeah, like, good, Rob. I know we don't.

I'm not talking about the traders, but it has already been released. I'm excited to come back. Yes, I get to return here!

Okay, the traders for the first week of January? Was it around January 9th? January 9th! Are they traders? Oh, January 9th.

Yeah, I'm excited. Aren't you excited? I'm very excited. I don't want to think about it too much because I don't want to get spoiled. I don't want to consider how it's going to go, but they have an incredible lineup.

And this time around, it's you, Boston Rob, Jeremy, and Tony. I mean, this is like a fever dream. Can I ask you a question before we go? Yes, I like to ask people this.

So, answer honestly. Yes, I wanted to see my name on the list. I was curious. Yes, thank you. They have traditionally chosen people who were not recent players.

And from Stephanie, from Sandra, from Parvati, from Sari, they had not been dipping into that pool. So I was very much surprised. I asked Richard this too. He said he wasn't surprised. I, on the other hand, was surprised.

I didn't think it was real. Anyone who ever told me, "Carolyn, you'd be great," was right. I was watching the show live with my son, and I was loving it. So getting that call—I never thought that would happen, especially with it being Parvati and all the old-school players. I never thought in a million years it would come to this.

So yeah, I was shocked too. Alright, Carolyn, where can people listen to you? In the meantime, Carolyn is talking about Star Wars 47 with Carson. Oh, thank you. I was supposed to do this.

Good. See, that's why you're good at this, Rob, and you know how to... Gosh, that's what I need to get better at. Okay, so you can find us at Let's Get Tribal Pod. It's on Spotify, Apple, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Is that what you say, Rob? And on YouTube, it's Let's Get Tribal Pod.

Okay, check it out. Then you can get some Carolyn cameos. Help Carolyn with the list. Yes.

I mean, look, help Carolyn stay in the top 10. No, it's fine. It's fine. No, people are—I'm joking about the cameo. People are very generous with Patreon and everything, but I just want to be in the top 53.

I'm not here to beg people to buy me Cameos, but it's just a little bit of, like, "Oh, I'm doing great." Then I look at Cameo, and it's like, "Oh my God." I know it stings a little; they didn't have to make a chart, and they only did it for one month, so we were grinding like, "Woo!" Now, they've been doing it every single month, and I'm like, "I can't even attempt to try to beat Boston Rob every month; it's just not happening." Yeah, well, I'm not even trying to beat Boston; I am, you know.

I'd like to just get in the top 50. You know? I hope I'm in the top 100. They cut off after 53. They don't care about the 100.

It's just 50, and if you're not there, you're not. I get it. Okay. Thank you, Rob. Alright, well, Carolyn, what about Instagram?

Carolyn rose with the zeros. Yes. Alright, Carolyn, thank you so much. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m looking forward to seeing your comments.

And please be nice. I want Carolyn's dad to be able to share positive comments with her. Oh, but Rob, honestly, like, come as you are. That is correct. Yeah, be nice, but if you’re not, that's okay; I understand I'm not for everybody. Alright, take care, everybody. Have a good one! Bye!